Results of my experiments placing various gut health supplements in special colon-targeted enteric capsules

[Wishful]

People are weird.

There must be a list somewhere of foods that make you wonder "Who even thought to put that in their mouth in the first place?"

Not only that, but people pay a lot of money for the experience of putting these weird things in their mouths.

 

[Booble]

There must be a list somewhere of foods that make you wonder "Who even thought to put that in their mouth in the first place?"

Not only that, but people pay a lot of money for the experience of putting these weird things in their mouths.

I figure some French man must have been really hungry when he started gnawing on frog's legs.
And how did people figure out which mushrooms were safe and which could kill you?
Liver? Really? Why would anyone eat another animal's liver?

 

[Hip]

Can we keep this thread on topic please.

 

[Alvin2]

A couple thoughts, one is that you could also use an enema or suppository instead of Shellac, just to be sure the delivery is to the colon.

Also i am curious if @Hip had ever had a colonoscopy. The reason is that the prep is a clean-out solution that removes everything from the colon so the scope can see the psychical structure. Now if you still have your appendix it will repopulate easily but several ME/CFS patients have claimed they feel better temporarily after the colonoscopy prep (and at least here in Canada you can get the solution without a prescription).

Finally something you probably don't want to hear, what if your ME/CFS is keeping a psychiatric condition suppressed? Most psychiatric drugs work by diminishing your ability to ruminate/think straight, the cognitive dysfunction may be doing the same in ME/CFS.

 

[Hip]

A couple thoughts, one is that you could also use an enema or suppository instead of Shellac, just to be sure the delivery is to the colon.

An enema might work, but I understand that an enema will normally only reach the first third of the colon. So if for example you were using a supplement like glutamine to heal a leaky colon, two thirds of your colon would remain untreated if you used an enema to deliver that glutamine.

Or if you want to target your colon with a biofilm destroyer like say N-acetyl cysteine, by enema that will only reach a third of the colon, and will not be able to reach the biofilm located in the other two thirds of the colon.

Also, the problem with enemas is that they are tedious to administer. They are OK if you only do them now and then; but given that issues like leaky gut can take several months of daily treatment to address, that would be a huge amount of enemas, and people would just get fed up with the treatment. Whereas by contrast, taking capsules daily is easy.

Also i am curious if @Hip had ever had a colonoscopy. The reason is that the prep is a clean-out solution that removes everything from the colon so the scope can see the psychical structure. Now if you still have your appendix it will repopulate easily but several ME/CFS patients have claimed they feel better temporarily after the colonoscopy prep (and at least here in Canada you can get the solution without a prescription).

Yes, I have had a colonoscopy, but unfortunately I did not notice any health benefits from the prep solution.

I've also performed a yoga practise called shankhaprakshalana, which in effect is like pouring litres and litres of warm salty water through your stomach's pyloric sphincter, letting this warm water run along your entire digestive tract, and exit from the anus. This yoga technique allows the salty water to cleanly flush out all the material in the intestines. I describe the technique more detail in this post. Unfortunately this total intestinal clean out with salty water did not lead to health benefits either.

Finally something you probably don't want to hear, what if your ME/CFS is keeping a psychiatric condition suppressed?

I've often wondered if that might be the case.

 

[Wishful]

Unfortunately this total intestinal clean out with salty water did not lead to health benefits either.

That's important information. It counters theories that ME is due to gut or microbiome dysfunction. Gut and microbiome dysfunction can certainly worsen ME symptoms, but if flushing out the digestive tract doesn't stop or at least reduce the symptoms significantly, it's not likely to be the root cause.

 

[ruben]

That's important information. It counters theories that ME is due to gut or microbiome dysfunction. Gut and microbiome dysfunction can certainly worsen ME symptoms, but if flushing out the digestive tract doesn't stop or at least reduce the symptoms significantly, it's not likely to be the root cause.

Not that I'm really up with the science, but it seems to all come back to the viral persistence, and how some people are getting better with antivirals.

 

[Hip]

That's important information. It counters theories that ME is due to gut or microbiome dysfunction. Gut and microbiome dysfunction can certainly worsen ME symptoms, but if flushing out the digestive tract doesn't stop or at least reduce the symptoms significantly, it's not likely to be the root cause.

Flushing out all the material in your digestive system with the shankhaprakshalana yoga technique would not remove bacterial biofilms attached to the intestinal lining; it probably would not even flush out loose bacteria that are attached to the lining.

After all, you can have a bladder infection on the bladder lining, even though the bladder is constantly being flushed out with the urine that collects there.

That's not to mention L-form bacteria, where a bacterium changes its morphology so that it can live inside human cells. Most bacterial species are capable of converting into the L-form state, and this strategy of hiding inside host cells protects them from much of the immune response, and from antibiotics.

Furthermore, you can get what is known as bacterial translocation, where whole bacteria actually pass through the intestinal lining, and start to work their way inside the body. Such translocated bacteria may live in the lymph nodes attached to the intestines (mesenteric lymph nodes), and these bacteria can also migrate into the liver, spleen, etc.

Once these translocated bacteria have entered the body, they may also start forming biofilms or L-form infections in the organs they infect, to protect them from the immune response, and from antibiotics.

Factors that promote bacterial translocation across the intestinal lining include a leaky gut and deficiencies in the immune response. Chronic viral infections of the intestine are known to cause both. Dysbiosis is another factor which can promote translocation.

So in this way, a persistent viral infection of the intestinal lining (as Dr John Chia has found in ME/CFS patients) could set up the conditions where you get increased bacterial translocation, increased biofilm formation or increased L-form bacteria in and around the intestines.

 

[Wishful]

Flushing out all the material in your digestive system with the shankhaprakshalana yoga technique would not remove bacterial biofilms attached to the intestinal lining; it probably would not even flush out loose bacteria that are attached to the lining.

Valid, but I think it still counters the theories that the right (Olympic athlete) FMT will cure ME. The possible disorders you list would require different treatments.

Are biofilms the result of specific strains, or are they the result of a combination of factors, such as the individual's genetics (resistance to biofilms), digestive processes, diet, etc?

 

[Hip]

Valid, but I think it still counters the theories that the right (Olympic athlete) FMT will cure ME. The possible disorders you list would require different treatments.

FMT for ME/CFS does not seem to offer long term benefits in most cases (although I did hear one story of a Lyme patient permanently cured by FMT, but such stories are rare).

However, I believe there are short term gains that last for a few months after the FMT. So FMT would seem to do something positive, albeit temporarily. It may just be that the FMT bacteria temporarily displace the dysbiotic gut population of bacteria, and this then reduces inflammation in the gut, improving symptoms. But eventually the dysbiosis may recur after a few months, due perhaps to immune deficiencies resulting from viral infections of the gut lining or the gut lymph nodes.

Are biofilms the result of specific strains, or are they the result of a combination of factors, such as the individual's genetics (resistance to biofilms), digestive processes, diet, etc?

I believe all nearly bacterial species can and do form biofilms, and biofilms are very hardy. The brown tartar that can appear on your teeth originates from a biofilm made by your oral bacteria to protect themselves. Many fungi can also create biofilms.

Biofilm formation and L-form morphology are two of the main strategies bacteria use to prevent being eliminated by the immune response.

Each bacterial species will make its own biofilm in which to live; though I believe you often get multi-species biofilms in which dozens of different bacterial species co-exist.

Long or repeat courses of antibiotics will prompt more biofilm formation, as the bacteria scramble to avoid being killed. Antibiotics generally have very poor penetration into biofilms, so bacteria can protect themselves from antibiotics by constructing a biofilm around them. This is one reason why biofilm wound infections (common in diabetics) are extremely difficult to treat clinically.

One study found that ME/CFS patients as well as those with IBS frequently have a history of long or repeated courses of antibiotics as a child. The authors speculate this early life exposure to antibiotics prompts lots of biofilm formation during childhood, and so predisposes the individual to gut dysbiosis later in life.

 

[MaximilianKohler]

Since I got quoted a few times, I decided to reply here https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/focused-on-the-gut-microbiome-fmts.52788/post-2458081 so as not to pollute this thread further.

 

[Alvin2]

An enema might work, but I understand that an enema will normally only reach the first third of the colon.

I was unaware of this

I've also performed a yoga practise called shankhaprakshalana

Never heard of it, i should look more into it.

I personally do not think ME/CFS is caused by the gut. That said if for example it is a persistent infection some patients may have that infection in their gut so it might be their personal cause to our common disease mechanism.

I've often wondered if that might be the case.

If it were the case that would mean your results are the opposite. That said there is no way to know until we get an ME/CFS treatment. And even then i hope it is not the case for you.

 

[Hip]

I just became aware of some ready-made enteric capsules called DRcaps (delayed release caps).

So with DRcaps, you would not need to dip the capsule in shellac. However, DRcaps are a quite a bit more expensive than regular empty capsules.

 

[almost]

Yes, I've been using these for a while. They are more expensive but also a lot more convenient.
Delayed Release Enteric 00 Capsules

I don't know that they will get to the colon intact though. If I understand the "technology" correctly, they open upon the PH change as the capsule goes out of the stomach into the small intestine.

 

[Hip]

Very interesting diagram from Figure 1 of this paper, showing that the hotspots for biofilm in the digestive tract are the ileum, cecum, and ascending colon:

Biofilm Hotspots Are in the
Ileum, Cecum, and Ascending Colon

This suggests that if using shellac coated capsules containing biofilm disrupters, you would want these capsules to ideally open just before the end of the small intestine, so that they release their contents in the ileum, cecum, and ascending colon.

Interestingly, Dr John Chia finds that ME/CFS patients often have tender spots on their abdomen corresponding to the ileum area of the small intestine (Invest in ME Conference 2011 video, timecode 14:35).

 

[Hip]

This video of biofilms in the intestines is interesting. Originally posted on YouTube here.

Another video showing colonic biofilms here. Originally this video is from the supplementary material of this study. This video shows how easily the biofilm is washed off the intestinal lining using a water jet.

Apparently Prof Christoph Gasche in Vienna offers a "Biowash" endoscopy procedure where he washes off patients' biofilms using a "jetwash" water jet.

Biofilms were present in 57% of patients with IBS and 34% of patients with ulcerative colitis compared with 6% of controls (P < .001). These yellow-green adherent layers of the ileum and right-sided colon were microscopically confirmed to be dense bacterial biofilms.

The presence of mucosal biofilms is an endoscopic feature in a subgroup of IBS and ulcerative colitis with disrupted bile acid metabolism and bacterial dysbiosis. They provide novel insight into the pathophysiology of IBS and ulcerative colitis, illustrating that biofilm can be seen as a tipping point in the development of dysbiosis and disease.

Source: here

In total, more than 1,000 colonoscopies were performed in a multi-centre study, and it was found that two thirds of those who had IBS symptoms also had biofilms in their small or large intestine. However, these mucosal biofilms are also found in one third of patients with ulcerative colitis. Up until now, it has always been assumed in investigations that this sticky film is made up of residues of impurities in the gut, which were difficult to eliminate. However, we have now been able to show that this is where the bacterial matrix adheres.

Source: here

 

[Carl]

Your wasting your time with this TBH because the problem is not in the colon. You do not understand how the digestive system functions and how the vagus nerve can affect the colon when attacked by a pathogen in a different area. For example the cause of IBS is not in the colon but the result of the pathogenic infection which causes ME does result in a change of permeability in the transverse colon which tends to cause IBS. I have experienced IBS myself when consuming different foods that my body is not accustomed to. Whey gave me very bad shits the first time I had some and I never had any more after that because it was so bad.

You won't solve anything by doing this. I recommend that you stop reading such crap research. L-Glutamine will solve nothing because it is not antimicrobial. It cannot fix it and it might be what is promoting your anxiety. When the pathogen(s) are destroyed the digestive system heals without taking any L-Glutamine. One of mine healed after about 15 -20 minutes after destroying a section using Reduced Silver which is less prone to influence and binding to the biofilm than ionic silver which was useless. I did not remove the biofilm and it did not destroy the whole infection, only about 2/3rds. I am pretty sure that was a Staph infection based upon it's reaction to EPI's.

 

[BrightCandle]

Interestingly, Dr John Chia finds that ME/CFS patients often have tender spots on their abdomen corresponding to the ileum area of the small intestine

For me its the Asc Colon and transv colon from half way to the turn to descending colon.

 

[Hip]

It worth watching this video of colonic biofilm being jet washed off the intestinal lining.

I understand this service is offered at the Loha for Life Clinic in Vienna (though they don't take international patients).

These yellow-green slimy biofilms seen in the video are found in 57% of IBS patients and 34% of ulcerative colitis patients, compared to 6% in controls, says the study.

It would be interesting to see a study examining whether such biofilm removal has benefit for conditions like IBS. Also, could such a prior biofilm wash out make FMT more effective?

I wonder if ME/CFS patients also often have these visible yellow-green slimy biofilms in their intestines; I don't think this has been studied.

 

[BrightCandle]

Yesterday I took NAC covered in confectionary glaze and I noticed nothing odd about my condition, all within normal parameters no weird mental health issues. My colon is a bit tender at the moment but this hasn't made it worse.