What is your favorite probiotic

[Learner1]

Most experienced with microbiome testing disadvise from viome as a waste of money. http://blog.microbiomeprescription....obiome-16s-and-shotgun-providers/viome-c-1-5/

I think this review misses the point. I've done several other microbiome tests over time that helpfully told me how many of each type of bacteria I had, which wasn't very useful to do anything with.

What I like about Viome is it provides actionable information to improve the composition of one's microbiome.

Both times I used it, it gave lists of foods to avoid and foods to focus on that I thought fit what I knew about myself and fit with other data points I had. It gave specific suggestions for prebiotic and probiotic products - some I couldn't buy due to my dairy and corn allergens, but I was able to find other products with those ingredients which did improve my gut symptoms and gut composition.

I think it's best use is after eliminating parasites and fungi and identifying gluten antibodies using other tests, but honestly, I've found it more useful than any other test for making positive improvements in a timely manner.

I guess if you like sifting through bacteria on your own and you know how to interpret it and put together your own gut protocol based on your own interpretation, you might prefer a different tool, but having been at this for 10 years, I've found it's not that simple to do that.

This is more on Viome's science:

https://www.viome.com/blog/meet-vie-viomes-artificial-intelligence-system

 

[pamojja]

What I like about Viome is it provides actionable information to improve the composition of one's microbiome.

Interesting. You are the first I heard of who found their suggestions helpful. Till now I only read their suggestions are completely useless.

 

[Learner1]

Interesting. You are the first I heard of who found their suggestions helpful. Till now I only read their suggestions are completely useless.

I know other people who've found them useful as well.

 

[pamojja]

I know other people who've found them useful as well.

Could you give a practical example in your personal experience where the high price for dietary recommentations from viome really helped in return?

 

[Learner1]

US$149-199 isn't a high price. I was having problems with gas and bloating and it suggested a German herbal concoction, Iberogast, which no doctor had ever suggested and I'd never seen in any nutrition store, which calmed my symptoms within a week.

It also told me to avoid corn, milk, and wheat, all of which I'm allergic to, and suggested plant foods high in anthrocyanins which another more expensive test showed a need for.

The other time I did it, it suggested lactobacillus plantarum, which suppress the growth of gas-producing bacteria in the intestines and may benefit some patients who suffer from IBS. It has antioxidant properties, helps to create microbe balance and stabilize digestive enzyme patterns. Again, symptoms resolved and no doctor had ever suggested nor had I seen it in my usual supplement haunts

Hope that helps @pamojja - I'm mystified by why you are so negative about it. I think there's some sound science involved in it.

 

[pamojja]

I'm mystified by why you are so negative about it.

It is just that many of us can't affort such common dietary intervention suggestions at such a price, beside what the herbal concoction, the ellimination diets, all plant phenols and probiotics cost by themself already. Which are widely suggested elsewhere for free already. And the final yardstick if these suggestion work is always in experimenting. Iberogast we see here in TV advertisements almost every evening.

I got a ubiome when it still was online for free (just 19,- for shipping). Was worth that, not a cent more.

What I like about Viome is it provides actionable information to improve the composition of one's microbiome.

Might get it right or wrong, due to their non-transparent or outdated research. Just as the free service by https://microbiomeprescription.com/Home/Index with transparent and constantly updated research.

Don't understand me wrong, everyone is free to use their money whichever way they like. But to most of us with very limited funds, the benefits of already widely available suggestions not exclusive to the viome-test doesn't justify its costs.


PS: the other test you regulaly recomment, NutreEval, would be really worth it. I'm trying to save for it, but still will take me many many more years..

 

[Learner1]

I'm sorry, I've met Ken Lassessen in person, read his stuff, had him give me recommendations from his program after uploading my uBiome (which went down in flames due to their $600 million scam). His recommendations told me to eat maize starch (which could kill me due to my corn allergy) and to eat glyphosate, a known carcinogen. I appreciate that he's trying to do a service, but it's an out of control mess.

He's a self promoter who pushes the notion if you could only fix your gut it would cure your ME/CFS. Knowing he'd spent quite a bit if time in the very same naturopathic clinic I'd gotten a lot of help from, doing a lot more than just helping his gut, I pressed him on this and he said he knows that a lot of patients don't have access to it can't afford better care, so this is a cheap thing he can offer.

This is deceitful and dangerous.

The other test he uses is Thryve, started by a guy who got c. diff and wanted to make the world a better place. The idea is to do their test and they send you probiotics. Unfortunately, the probiotics are grown in milk, making them useless to any of us with a milk allergy.

Quote honestly, microbiome science is in it's infancy. I've had a lot of interesting discussions with my daughter who did a lot of microbiome research for her PhD and works for a company that engineers bacteria. She thinks it's pretty complicated and no one knows what the optimum gut looks like or how to optimize a non-optimized gut.

Having lived in Viome's hometown for many years, I'm well aware of Naveen Jain and his approach to things. They are using good science to try to tackle this problem and the resources of Los Alamos Labs to do RNA sequencing and do complex analysis using the research they've gathered which is better funded by PhD researchers and loaded into their algorithms. But, it's the state of the art of where things are now. It's not perfect, bug no system is.

And, at $149 for the test and supplements ranging from $10-40, it's not expensive, and I've found it more helpful than eating RoundUp and corn.

 

[pamojja]

She thinks it's pretty complicated and no one knows what the optimum gut looks like or how to optimize a non-optimized gut.

Exactly my point. Only experimentation will reveal which interventions are helpful.

..and I've found it more helpful than eating RoundUp and corn.

True, just as many others, like members of the https://innercircle.undoctored.com/forum/social_view.aspx - very obsessed with restoring their microbiome - who tried viome found their recommentations completely counter their health.

 

[Learner1]

Exactly my point. Only experimentation will reveal which interventions are helpful.

After 10 years of experimenting, I'm a bit fed up and a more interested in finding things that work. I'm not opposed to seeing what algorithms that recommend solutions based on my microbiota turn up. It's a lot better than just going down to the drugstore and buying whatever probiotics are being offered.

 

[pamojja]

After 10 years of experimenting, I'm a bit fed up and a more interested in finding things that work.

Sorry to hear of your frustration. In my case experimenting brought instant results showing right away the directions to persue. Though full remission took from 3, 7 or 9 years for different (by commercial medicine considered non-reversible) chronic conditions.

Thanks due to the internet all the information is out there, if one has the time to research. But lacks the money for questionable tests. Just an example: https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/11/5/4745/htm

Table 1. Recently published claimed health benefits of probiotic microorganisms.

Genus Species Recently published health claims with references (strain specific date is noted where available) LactobacillusL. rhamnosusReduction of viral-associated pulmonary damage (L. rhamnosus CRL1505) [37]; prevention and reduction of severity of atopic dermatitis in children (L. rhamnosus GG) [108]; reduction of risk for developing allergic disease (L. rhamnosus GG) [109], (L. rhamnosus HN001 [110]; anti-diabetic potential (various strains from human infant faecal samples) [111]; prevention of necrotizing enterocolitis in newborns (L. rhamnosus GG) [112]; prevention or treatment of bacterial vaginosis (L. rhamnosus GR-1) [113]; aid in weight loss of obese women (L. rhamnosus CGMCC1.3724) [114]; treatment of acute gastroenteritis in children (L. rhamnosus GG) [115]; reduction of risk for rhinovirus infections in preterm infants (L. rhamnosus GG and L. rhamnosus ATCC 53103) [116]; protection of human colonic muscle from lipopolysaccharide-induced damage (L. rhamnosus GG) [117]L. acidophilusTreatment of travellers’ diarrhoea [39]; reduction of hospital stay of children with acute diarrhoea [118]; antifungal activity (L. acidophilus ATCC-4495) [119]; prevention or treatment of bacterial vaginosis [113]; treatment of C. difficile-associated diarrhoea [119]; reduction of incidence of febrile urinary tract infections in children [120]; reduction of irritable bowel syndrome symptoms [121].L. plantarumPrevention of endotoxin production [35]; antifungal activity (L. plantarum NRRL B-4496) [119] reduction of irritable bowel syndrome symptoms [121].L. caseiTreatment of functional constipation in adults (L. casei Lcr35 and L. casei Shirota) [43]; treatment of C. difficile-associated diarrhoea [122]; restoration of vaginal flora of patient with bacterial vaginosis (L. casei Lcr35) [123]; reduction of irritable bowel syndrome symptoms [121]; reduction of diarrhoea duration of antibiotic-associated diarrhoea in geriatric patients (L. casei Shirota) [124]; immunomodulatory mechanisms (L. casei Shirota) [125]; improvement of rheumatoid arthritis status (L. casei 01) [126]; protection against Salmonella infection (L. casei CRL-431) [127]; prevention of Salmonella-induced synovitis [128]; treatment of intravaginal staphylococcosis (L. casei IMV B-7280) [129].L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricusAntibiotic resistance of yogurt starter culture [130]; enhancement of systemic immunity in elderly (L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus 8481) [131]; antibacterial action against E. coli [132]; modulation of brain activity [133].L. brevisProtective role in bile salt tolerance (L. brevis KB290) [134]; reduction in plague acidogenicity (L. brevis CD2) [135].L. johnsoniiImpact on adaptive immunity for protection against respiratory insults [136]; reduction of occurrence of gastritis and risk of H. pylori infection (L. johnsonii MH-68) [137]; inhibition of S. sonnei activity (L. johnsonii F0421) [138]; treatment of perennial allergic rhinitis in children together with levocetirizine (L. johnsonii EM1) [139]. L. fermentumPrevention or treatment of bacterial vaginosis (L. fermentum RC-14) [113]; blockage of adherence of pathogenic microorganisms on vaginal epithelium [140]; antistaphylococcal action (L. fermentum ATCC 11739) [141]; potential for reduction of insulin resistance and hypercholesterolemia (L. fermentum NCIMB 5221) [142].L. reuteriReduction of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (L. reuteri NCIMB 30242) [71]; treatment of acute gastroenteritis in children [115]; reduction of diarrhoea duration in children (L. reuteri ATCC 55730) [143]; management of infant colic (L. reuteri ATCC 55730 and L. reuteri DSM 17938) [144]; reduction of onset of gastrointestinal disorders in infants (L. reuteri DSM 17938) [145]; reduction of frequency of proven sepsis, feeding intolerance and duration of hospital stay in preterm infants (L. reuteri DSM 17938) [146].BifidobacteriumB. infantisReduction of irritable bowel syndrome symptoms [122]; reduction of necrotizing enterocolitis in preterm infants [147,148,149].B. animalis subsp. lactisTreatment of functional constipation in adults (B. animalis subsp. lactis DN-173 010) [43]; reduction of incidence of febrile urinary tract infections in children [121]; modulation of brain activity [133]; reduction of necrotizing enterocolitis in preterm infants [147]; reduction of total microbial counts in dental plaque (B. animalis subsp. lactis DN-173 010) [150]; reduction of total cholesterol (B. animalis subsp. lactis MB 202/DSMZ 23733) [151]; reduction of risk of upper respiratory illness (B. animalis subsp. lactis BI-04) [152].B. bifidumReduction of hospital stay of children with acute diarrhoea [118]; reduction of necrotizing enterocolitis in preterm infants [148,149]; reduction of total cholesterol (B. bifidum MB 109/DSMZ 23731) [151].B. longumPrevention and treatment of necrotizing enterocolitis in newborns [51]; reduction of radiation induced diarrhoea [52]; reduction of necrotizing enterocolitis with Bifidobacteria cocktail (B. breve, B. infantis, B. bifidum, B. longum) [149]; reduction of irritable bowel syndrome symptoms [122]; treatment of gastrointestinal diseases (B. longum CMCC P0001) [153]; perinatal intervention against onset of allergic sensitization (B. longum CCM 7952) [154].B. brevePrevention and treatment of necrotizing enterocolitis in newborns [51]; reduction of necrotizing enterocolitis with Bifidobacteria cocktail (B. breve, B. infantis, B. bifidum, B. longum) [149]; reduction of cholesterol (B. breve MB 113/DSMZ 23732) [151].SaccharomycesS. boulardiTreatment of travellers’ diarrhoea [39]; treatment and reduction of diarrhoea duration regardless of cause [7,33,56,57,58]; treatment of irritable bowel syndrome [59]; treatment of moderate ulcerative colitis [60,61]; treatment and reduction of recurrent pseudomembrane colitis infection caused by C. difficile [62]; treatment of acute gastroenteritis in children [115].LactococcusL. lactis subsp. lactisTreatment of antibiotic-associated diarrhoea [33]; adhesion to vaginal epithelial cells (L. lactis subsp. lactis KLDS4.0325) [65]; nisin production (L. lactis subsp. lactis CV56) [66]; modulation of brain activity [133]; antimicrobial activity against C. difficile [155]; antimicrobial and probiotic properties (L. lactis subsp. lactis ATCC 11454) [156]. EnterococcusE. duransAntibiotic and antioxidant activity (E. durans LAB18s) [70], adherence to colonic tissue and anti-inflammatory activity [157].E. faeciumTreatment of antibiotic-associated diarrhoea [34]; efficient animal probiotic [73].StreptococcusS. thermophilusReduction of irritable bowel syndrome symptoms [122]; antibiotic resistance of yogurt starter culture [130]; reduction of necrotizing enterocolitis in preterm infants [147,148].PediococcusP. acidilacticiPediocin production with antimicrobial and probiotic properties (P. acidilactici UL5) [156]; bacteriocin production [158]; elimination of H. pylori infections (P. acidilactici BA28) [159].LeuconostocL. mesenteroidesLeucoin production, probiotic profile (survival at low pH, in presence of bile salts, in presence of pepsin) (L. mesenteroides B7) [160].BacillusB. coagulansTreatment of antibiotic-associated diarrhoea [34,42], treatment of bacterial vaginosis (B. coagulans ATCC PTA-11748) [161]; immunological support (B. coagulans GandenBC30) [162]; prevention of caries in children [163].B. subtilis Efficient animal probiotic [74,75]; treatment of diarrhoea and aiding in H. pylori eradication (B. subtilis R0179) [76]; production of nitric oxide [164].B. cereusEfficient animal probiotic (B. cereus NVH75/95) [80].EscherichiaE. coli Nissle 1917Treatment of functional constipation in adults [43]; treatment of inflammatory bowel disease [83]; treatment of gastrointestinal disorders [84]; pro-inflammatory potential [165]; prevention of surface ocular diseases [166]; reduction of Salmonella enterica Typhimurium intestinal colonization by iron competition [167].

 

[Learner1]

@pamojja There's currently no cure for secondary oxaluria.