Ornithine low? urea cycle?

[yellowspain]

Hello. In my blood amino acid analysis, ornithine is low. I have read that it is linked to the urea cycle, but I don't understand anything. Can anybody help me?

 

[Judee]

@triffid113 talks about the urea cycle sometimes in her posts. I'm not sure if she's been on PR for a while but you could do a search for those. Maybe something she's said may help you figure out why your ornithine is low. ??

I do think many of us PwME (people with ME) make too much ammonia for some reason so maybe your body is using up the ornithine to clear that. ??

 

[yellowspain]

Hi. Thanks for answering. I was thinking In what you say about ammonia. It's a possibility. I think my sam-e levels are too high, so maybe ornitine IS getting down trying to crlear everything.

 

[triffid113]

Ornithine is a naturally occurring amino acid found in meat, fish, dairy and eggs. Do you eat enough of these?

I have a problem excretion ammonia - it's a genetic problem. Thus, I was told I had to limit protein consumption..So I tested my ammonia levels after eating various amounts of protein and I found no problem unless I followed an Atkins like diet (higher than 80g/day, of protein). Ammonia is a breakdown product of digesting protein..If you had a real (worse) problem excreting ammonia and therefore had to limit protein intake, then you might be between a rock and a hard place. Otherwise you are probably not eating enough complete protein.

 

[yellowspain]

Hi. I eat protein every day with every meal. So I don't know why my ornitine is lowe. My cystine IS low too, while other aminos related with proteínas are fine.

 

[cristi_b]

I have a similar problem, you can check my older post here: Supplementing Manganese might unblock the Urea Cycle?

You should check your liver and kidney function: the bare minimum would be GGT, Ammonia, Urea, BUN/Creatine ratio. These are important to figure out if you should even be thinking about an urea cycle disorder.

This sort of problem is a bit complicated even for medical professionals, in my case(I live in Romania, a EU country) no doctor I consulted could find an explanation for my high Ammonia and Low Ornithine. Frustrated with the lack of knowledge of the medical establishment in my area, I have done a lot of blood tests on my own, even genetic testing through Nebula Genomics and no urea cycle disorder was found.

I was wondering if you have the exact same problem I do, so, I you have the time, maybe you can answer these questions:
1. Have you tried an Ornithine supplement? What were the results? I get urinary urgency and dribbling.
2. Do you frequently have urinary issues like dribbling, urgency? For me a lot of supplements/vitamins causes this: B6/P5P, Arginine/Citrulline but most of all Ornithine, any type of Folates like Methyl Folate or even eating lots of green salad
3. Do you frequently get very dilated blood vessels/veins? I get dilated veins from supplements like Citrulline, Arginine just to name a few and even when relaxing in bed, watching a movie.
4. Is your Glutamine level close to the upper limit? Mine is 107 mg/L while the upper limit is 110 mg/L, basically it's very close to the laboratory maximum range.

 

[yellowspain]

I have a similar problem, you can check my older post here: Supplementing Manganese might unblock the Urea Cycle?

You should check your liver and kidney function: the bare minimum would be GGT, Ammonia, Urea, BUN/Creatine ratio. These are important to figure out if you should even be thinking about an urea cycle disorder.

This sort of problem is a bit complicated even for medical professionals, in my case(I live in Romania, a EU country) no doctor I consulted could find an explanation for my high Ammonia and Low Ornithine. Frustrated with the lack of knowledge of the medical establishment in my area, I have done a lot of blood tests on my own, even genetic testing through Nebula Genomics and no urea cycle disorder was found.

I was wondering if you have the exact same problem I do, so, I you have the time, maybe you can answer these questions:
1. Have you tried an Ornithine supplement? What were the results? I get urinary urgency and dribbling.
2. Do you frequently have urinary issues like dribbling, urgency? For me a lot of supplements/vitamins causes this: B6/P5P, Arginine/Citrulline but most of all Ornithine, any type of Folates like Methyl Folate or even eating lots of green salad
3. Do you frequently get very dilated blood vessels/veins? I get dilated veins from supplements like Citrulline, Arginine just to name a few and even when relaxing in bed, watching a movie.
4. Is your Glutamine level close to the upper limit? Mine is 107 mg/L while the upper limit is 110 mg/L, basically it's very close to the laboratory maximum range.

Thank you very much for responding, I am reading your post and I am still looking for more information on the internet. From the values you mention, my creatinine is elevated. The rest (except the ammonium, which I have not measured), is normal.

1. Have you tried an ornithine supplement? What was the results?

I haven't tried any ornithine supplements, I'm scared of the effect the supplements have on me.

2. Do you frequently have urinary problems such as dribbling, urgency?

My feeling is the opposite, I take supplements and it is difficult for me to urinate, despite drinking a lot of water.

3. Do you often have very dilated blood vessels/veins?

This happened to me for a while, I saw my blood vessels dilate, then it disappeared.

4. Is your glutamine level close to the upper limit?

My glutamine is low, as are my cysteine and ornithine levels. My alanine is elevated.

 

[cristi_b]

My glutamine is low, as are my cysteine and ornithine levels. My alanine is elevated.

Have you checked your liver function recently(around the time you tested the aminoacids)? L-Alanine is linked to the liver enzyme ALT which is routinely checked during blood work for liver function.

Based on your symptoms, which are different from mine, you have a different problem than me.

 

[yellowspain]

Have you checked your liver function recently(around the time you tested the aminoacids)? L-Alanine is linked to the liver enzyme ALT which is routinely checked during blood work for liver function.

Based on your symptoms, which are different from mine, you have a different problem than me.

Thanks so much. I didn't know the connection between alanine and ALT . My ALT is In range. I' ve read on internet that It Will be a Sign of thiamine defficiency.

 

[cristi_b]

ALT enzyme requires P5P(the active form of vitamin B6) in order to work with AKG and L-Alanine. (as per Wikipedia page section "Function").
If you don't have enough P5P/B6 that could mean low AKG. If I'm not mistaken the low AKG would mean that you would get low Nitric Oxide(NO) which would coincide with your urinary retention and veins that no longer get dilated(your exact symptoms).

So it's not exactly low B1(thiamine) but low B6 that would match with your condition. I can't find any link between B1 and ALT or L-Alanine, can you please share where you found that?

 

[yellowspain]

Hi. I' ve seen In a

ALT enzyme requires P5P(the active form of vitamin B6) in order to work with AKG and L-Alanine. (as per Wikipedia page section "Function").
If you don't have enough P5P/B6 that could mean low AKG. If I'm not mistaken the low AKG would mean that you would get low Nitric Oxide(NO) which would coincide with your urinary retention and veins that no longer get dilated(your exact symptoms).

So it's not exactly low B1(thiamine) but low B6 that would match with your condition. I can't find any link between B1 and ALT or L-Alanine, can you please share where you found that?

Hi. I' ve seen In a Chris Masterjohn document. He talks about how to test vitamin status. I can't share the link because he sells It In his web.

 

[cristi_b]

You can try B1, but if it doesn't work, my suggestion is to try B6 in the form of P5P. If you get no relief from both of them, I would than try the AAKG supplement(Arginine with a-KetoGlutarate) as I suspect you have low NO.