Multiple binders

[seamyb]

I had two great days and then yesterday had a very severe panic attack.

I used to get panic attacks, went on sertraline and then got this illness when I came off it. I think the panic attacks were the start of the illness, they came close to my water damage exposure.

It doesn't make much sense that I was fine for the years I was on sertraline. Maybe it would help to go back on it?

 

[ljimbo423]

I had two great days and then yesterday had a very severe panic attack.

I used to get panic attacks, went on sertraline and then got this illness when I came off it. I think the panic attacks were the start of the illness, they came close to my water damage exposure.

It doesn't make much sense that I was fine for the years I was on sertraline. Maybe it would help to go back on it?

I think anything that can significantly lower stress can help with this illness. I was functioning at about a 3 when I got into therapy, years ago. I got on an ssri and an anti-anxiety med..

Over about 4-5 years, I went from a 3 to a 7. I quit therapy because I felt so good, and not long after that I had a HUGE amount of stress in my life. That stress took me from a 7 down to a 2, in a matter of months!

I'm still trying to get back to or even pass that 7. A lot of stress can take me rate out of the picture, and often does, even though my symptoms have been fairly mild for a long time now.

 

[hb8847]

I had two great days and then yesterday had a very severe panic attack.

I used to get panic attacks, went on sertraline and then got this illness when I came off it. I think the panic attacks were the start of the illness, they came close to my water damage exposure.

It doesn't make much sense that I was fine for the years I was on sertraline. Maybe it would help to go back on it?

Eugh how awful mate, sorry that happened to you. I used to get panic attacks a fair bit, I'm pretty sure it's all linked with the physical health stuff, I've even noticed it the last few days on binders my moods have been completely haywire.

What do you do to handle it? I still get anxiety but I'm generally able to contain it from becoming a full blown panic with breathing exercises and meditation.

Re the Sertraline, if it worked for you before then maybe consider it? SSRIs never worked for me, I used to take Clonazepam very occasionally when the anxiety got too much which was excellent but you have to be more careful with benzodiazepenes because they're apparently a nightmare to get off of, but if you can keep it to occasionally they can be a lifesaver.

 

[hb8847]

Update on my situation - I mentioned I took some S Boulardii and it seemed to be having quite a big effect. Well my symptoms were pretty bad for like a week after taking a small dose which was strange to me - I'd have a day of improving then be worse again the next day. And all from 2 days of Boulardii? It didn't make sense.

So I went back to the drawing board and analysed everything I was taking, which included PC (daily now), and Psyllium Husk for my constipation, which I'd started shortly after the Boulardii. Which made me think - maybe the Psyllium is acting as a binder? I'd read about fibre being used to bind toxins, maybe this is what was keeping my symptoms bad?

Anyway I stopped the Psyllium about 3 days ago and immediately started to improve, and today I was almost back to baseline. And I was even able to take small amounts of the Boulardii again with no worsening, so it was probably the Psyllium fibre making me feel bad all this time! Mad.

I'm grateful it's not the Boulardii because it means I can start ramping that up again, and it did feel like it was helping, possibly in my gut more than in binding the toxins. But it's crazy to me how easy it is to trigger a Herx with something as innocuous as Psyllium Husk. Had I not done my research on fibre binders I'd probably have never put 2 and 2 together.

 

[seamyb]

What do you do to handle it?

Tell myself it will go away eventually... apart from that, very little. I've had no anxiety in the 2 years I've had this illness. So that panic attack was out of nowhere.

Which made me think - maybe the Psyllium is acting as a binder?

I was thinking about whether psyllium was responsible for the panic attack. It was like a bad exacerbation reaction but with anxiety thrown in. And the only thing I had taken was psyllium husk and inulin. I just took a load of resistant starch there, so I hope it doesn't have a similar effect.

 

[seamyb]

Just an update on what I'm thinking.

Calcium D Glucarate did help me, but I think it was because it's an antioxidant, rather than any effect on glucuronidation. I had negative effects including muscle pain, heart palpitations and, of course, air hunger, which all antioxidants seem to cause.

Currently off everything for a while to allow myself to settle. I think I may start taking butyrate and glutamine to try and strengthen the gut lining. I'm back and forth between the cause of the worsenings. Maybe gut permeability has something to do with it, I dunno. Might start probiotics too, although I'm not sure how effective these are. If the resistant starch doesn't make me worse I'll keep at it, it feeds butyrate producing bacteria.

Just trying anything and everything I can to allow charcoal to not make me stop after a few times.

 

[hb8847]

I was thinking about whether psyllium was responsible for the panic attack. It was like a bad exacerbation reaction but with anxiety thrown in.

I'd forgotten you were taking Psyllium too, is that to keep the bowels moving? And if your situation is anything like mine (which from the similar reactions to charcoal etc it seems they are) then it wouldn't surprise me if Psyllium was causing you problems too. For me the main stuff was physical but there was also some mental symptoms thrown in there. My guess is that anything that triggers more toxin release can also trigger mood changes as the two are linked.

but I think it was because it's an antioxidant, rather than any effect on glucuronidation

Yes I also get some temporary relief from antioxidants, things like CoQ10 and PQQ and of course glutathione, but the benefit is usually short lived.

strengthen the gut lining. I'm back and forth between the cause of the worsenings. Maybe gut permeability has something to do with it, I dunno. Might start probiotics too

It probably can't hurt to help heal the gut simultaneously. In the doctor appointment I had recently she mentioned that if the gut wasn't properly healed then trying to heal any mould situation would be very difficult because it would likely just recolonise the gut.

Which is why I'm quite pleased I can tolerate the Boulardii OK - how is that going for you? It should be helping with the gut, are you still taking it and have you noticed any benefit at all? Where are you at on all your supplements, are you still doing PC?

One interesting thing about the Boulardii for me is that it seems to have already reduced my intolerances to some things which suggests there was maybe some gut factor to that all along. My diet is still incredibly restricted but I'm getting less brain fog when I eat, and a big one is that I'm able to tolerate much more PC - I took two 420mg capsules yesterday with ease when the last time I did that about a month ago it knocked me out for days. I'm hopeful this might be an early sign I'm onto a good thing with the Boulardii, even if all it does is reduce my sensitivity to things.

 

[seamyb]

I'd forgotten you were taking Psyllium too, is that to keep the bowels moving?

Yea, that and to feed good bacteria. I hadn't noticed any negative effects from it, but I'm suspecting I do get worse on fiber... I took banana flour (resistant starch) yesterday and this morning I was pretty rough. Although the cumin just saves me, I'd be fucked without it.

Which is why I'm quite pleased I can tolerate the Boulardii OK - how is that going for you? It should be helping with the gut, are you still taking it and have you noticed any benefit at all? Where are you at on all your supplements, are you still doing PC?

I stopped taking Boullardii, but only because I noticed nothing from it and I've been experimenting quite a bit. Just got a bit bored of taking tablets. I think I'll resume it after I take a break from everything. Haven't been doing PC either, again just the pill popping fatigue. Might start it back up again, but I'm gonna try a few things one-by-one and don't want any confounding variables.

I've had better days recently, maybe this is a sign I am improving overall. I want to go a while with no supplements to see how I feel at a base level. But at the minute I think I've been upsetting the system a bit too much and am feeling a bit rough.

I'm gonna do a biomesight test - get an indication of my gut microbiome.

 

[hb8847]

I'm gonna do a biomesight test - get an indication of my gut microbiome.

I think this is a good idea, I've done a one with Genova and it's been very useful to take into appointments with gastros and they were able to quickly tell a lot from it about my gut and bacterial makeup.

I stopped taking Boullardii, but only because I noticed nothing from it and I've been experimenting quite a bit.

I mentioned this earlier but just in case, I was taking Boulardii for ages for SIBO and it was doing literally nothing, which was odd because at the time I was very sensitive to all supplements. Then when I recently started taking them again as a binder it was immediately clear it was doing a lot (triggered night sweats etc, also seems to have significantly reduced my food sensitivities) and I'm pretty sure it's all because I'm using a different brand, so maybe don't rule out yet another brand might have more of an effect? FYI the one I'm currently taking is this one by NOW.

 

[seamyb]

I'm starting to consider candida now.

Ever since I took glucomannan, fiber seems to be causing me anxiety. I haven't had this reaction from any other binder so I wonder whether it's feeding candida in my gut and the fermentation is causing it.

@hb8847 what's your diet like in terms of carbs? I'm a sugar addict and really don't want to cut it down never mind quit it, but I feel I have to. Nathan mentions that he treats most of his patients for candida too.

Perhaps the severity of my exacerbations from binders are down to candida and the ample sugar and carbs I'm feeding it. Gonna try cutting down to low carbs to see if I get any results with the binders. Then I'll maybe use antifungal herbs when I'm treating the sinuses to try and herx really bad

Also, I've found a paper that seems to suggest that S. Boulardii has no effect on candida. Do we actually have a reputable source for this?

Also, also, I found a paper that says sertraline is an antifungal that reduces candida by about 80%. So, another reason I think I might have it.

 

[hb8847]

Ever since I took glucomannan, fiber seems to be causing me anxiety. I haven't had this reaction from any other binder so I wonder whether it's feeding candida in my gut and the fermentation is causing it.

As far as I'm aware fibre doesn't actively feed bad bacteria or fungus, that's mainly sugar and carbs. It would surprise me if the fibre supplements were causing fermentation leading to a reaction, not least because it's something that pretty much all these mould and SIBO doctors recommend. Obviously some things high in fibre are also high in sugar, but for things like Psyllium that isn't the case.

@hb8847 what's your diet like in terms of carbs? I'm a sugar addict and really don't want to cut it down never mind quit it, but I feel I have to. Nathan mentions that he treats most of his patients for candida too.

My diet is incredibly restricted because my food sensitivities are so bad, but what little I do eat is very healthy. I've not had sugar, alcohol or anything processed in about 10 years, gluten or dairy too. Changing your diet can be a very quick win for a lot of these CFS type conditions so I highly recommend you do it even if you don't think it's related to the issue with binders. And absolutely give up sugar immediately, all this binder stuff is absolutely pointless if you're constantly feeding the bad stuff with its favourite food.

Also, I've found a paper that seems to suggest that S. Boulardii has no effect on candida. Do we actually have a reputable source for this?

I wasn't aware it was specifically used for candida, but it is widely used as a general probiotic because it's so good at temporarily colonising the gut itself it pushes everything else out, presumably including candida.

Just had a search and found this:

The first is Saccharomyces boulardii, which is itself a yeast, but one with probiotic potential which has displayed anti-Candida properties in relevant research studies. S. boulardii has been shown to inhibit populations of Candida and deter them from establishing in the intestines1, and it's also suggested that S. boulardii may help to reduce the risk of Candida yeasts translocating from the digestive tract2 . It's thought that these effects occur because S. boulardii duces caprylic acid, an antifungal substance which is effective against Candida yeasts3. S. boulardii has also been shown to reduce the potential for Candida infestation and inflammation in inflammatory bowel disease4. Beneficial bacteria can also help to displace Candida populations; in particular, one of the most well-researched strains of Lactobacilli, Lactobacillus acidophilus NCFM®, has been shown in studies to stimulate the production of antibodies to C. albicans antigens7.

One of the citations being this paper, so it appears S Boulardii is effective on Candida.

 

[hapl808]

I believe fermentable fibers can feed bacteria, but it depends on the type of fiber. There's a book called The Fast Tract Diet by Norm Robillard that goes into his theory on SIBO, fermentable fibers and sugars, etc. I've found it helpful for my own reflux issues - but only helpful, not a cure. But I seem to have more going on than just SIBO as my LPR style reflux is infinitely worse when experiencing PEM symptoms.

 

[seamyb]

As far as I'm aware fibre doesn't actively feed bad bacteria or fungus

Yea, like @hapl808 says, the fermentable ones do. Fungi and bacteria have a lot more enzymes for breaking down carbs than we do, so they can manage the oligosaccharides too.

I seemed to deal with fibers ok until I took glucomannan. And then they started introducing the new-ish symptom of panic attacks. Luckily these have gone away now, but I think they must have been having an effect on top of binding, which is why I'm now thinking about overgrowth.

I've done a few days of low sugar/carbs and my gut sickness in the mornings is getting better. Although I'm so tired and weak. I just want cake and custard man.

 

[renski]

I tried Epsom salts this week and that was a disaster. I gave too much hydrogen sulphide producing bacteria in my gut and a quick look through PR suggests ppl who have that may not do well with mag sulfate. There’s always a catch.

epsom salt baths are a bad idea, supposedly need to open drainage pathways first if reacting to epsom salt baths (lymphatic, liver, bowels, kidney etc)

 

[hb8847]

I've done a few days of low sugar/carbs and my gut sickness in the mornings is getting better. Although I'm so tired and weak. I just want cake and custard man.

Maybe give the Ketogenic diet a go, I was doing it for a while and it didn't much help but some doctors swear by it having helped their patients. Particularly if you've got a problem of fermenting gut bacteria - keto should starve it out.

Re the "weak" feeling on low carb, this is common, you just have to push through it while your body adjusts.

Yea, like @hapl808 says, the fermentable ones do. Fungi and bacteria have a lot more enzymes for breaking down carbs than we do, so they can manage the oligosaccharides too.

It depends what fibre you're talking about. Things that are very high in carbs could stick around in the upper gut and get fermented, but anything very fibrous will get pushed down to the colon very quickly as far as I'm aware. That's why on SIBO or SIFO diets you'll never see doctors recommend having zero fibre, just the stuff that's very carb/sugar heavy. Psyllium is the type of fibre that would get pushed down to the colon immediately and it's very unlikely it would contribute to bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine.

Of course if you've got bacterial dysbiosis in the colon then fibre wont be helping that. But zero fibre diets won't fix dysbiosis anyway, you'll need things like probiotics for that.

Here is one of the stricter diets I've been sent in the past by multiple gastroenterologists - you could follow that for a bit and see how it goes.

 

[Lalia]

epsom salt baths are a bad idea, supposedly need to open drainage pathways first if reacting to epsom salt baths (lymphatic, liver, bowels, kidney etc)

thanks @renski so it’s a matter of Epsom salts stirring up toxins & then there’s no way of getting them out of the body? Has that been your personal experience or have you seen other people talk about the same thing?

 

[renski]

thanks @renski so it’s a matter of Epsom salts stirring up toxins & then there’s no way of getting them out of the body? Has that been your personal experience or have you seen other people talk about the same thing?

Yep could be that, or your body doesn't like the sulfate because something else is deficient/broken/unresolved. I don't tolerate epsom salt baths either and haven't figured out why.. may need to focus on other detox methods but who knows what.. coffee enema, sauna, fsm, ioncleanse foot bath, lymphatic massages all cause major side effects for me, the most tolerable are liver/kidney/lymph remedies (homeopathic, herbs or things like amino acids, bile salts, bitters etc). For lymphatic there is, essential oils, xp2 lymphatic machine, rebounder, vibration plate etc. No idea though if lymphatic is the place to focus on.

 

[frozenborderline]

It would be nice if we could get solid research on toxins. I've been begging the OMF to look into this stuff , and I'm not the only one.

https://openletteropenmedicinefound...he-open-medicine-foundation-by-adrian-becker/
If we had solid research binders and treatments would be less of a guessing game.

 

[frozenborderline]

https://openletteropenmedicinefound...he-open-medicine-foundation-by-andrew-cramer/

 

[frozenborderline]

https://openletteropenmedicinefoundation.com/4-2/