Is electro-magnetic field (EMF) hypersensitivity a real thing?

[Wishful]

If something has zero danger, there usually aren't restrictions on safe levels.

Is there anything that isn't dangerous at some level? Even water has a toxic limit. Also, some effects are non-linear; a structural element can have a force applied pretty much an infinite number of times safely, but if the force exceeds a certain limit, it can catastrophically fail. Limits on EMF depend on frequency, because the mechanisms of effects on human bodies varies with frequency; 5 Hz might induce a current across the body, while 5 GHz might heat molecules. Microwaves might be safe for gradually warming a body, but too high a level will raise the temperature too much. For some frequencies, there probably haven't been adequate studies done on effects of long-term exposure, so there might be a limit just due to "we don't know (and the lawyers scare us)". So an official safe level is not a sign that something is dangerous at levels below that. I take it as a sign that there's no proven risk below that level.

 

[hapl808]

Is there anything that isn't dangerous at some level? Even water has a toxic limit.

So an official safe level is not a sign that something is dangerous at levels below that. I take it as a sign that there's no proven risk below that level.

Oh that was exactly my point. Whether it's pesticides or EMF - having a safe level could mean above that level might be evidence of danger, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's safe below that level.

Water is a good example. If you went to the doctor and said you chugged 4L of water and felt sick, their response should not be, "You're crazy, water is safe."

Now, might your response to water be different depending on your level of dehydration, comorbidities, etc?

And my example of paper towels can further illustrate. Whether someone uses 1 paper towel or 1,000 - I wouldn't expect them to be harmed. But I actually can't know that for sure - maybe there's some pesticide residue in the way paper towels are manufactured.

When we do have limits, that often implies a dangerous level is known - like with water. But like you said, we don't really understand long term risks, etc. Maybe cell phones could be 10x their current level and be safe, or maybe everyone would have cancer. It's incredibly challenging to study the effects of 60 years of daily cell phone use in humans - and we like to pretend we know what we're doing. No matter how many times we're wrong.

 

[Wishful]

I don’t claim to be an expert on grounding or faraday cages but generally speaking afaik faraday cages need to be grounded, unless you know the exact source/direction and frequency of the EMF/RF you are shielding against and are using it directionally.

I'm not an expert either, but it seems there's debate about the necessity of grounding. For one thing, it depends on whether you're talking about static charge or induced currents, Depending on the situation, grounding can reduce the effectiveness, because the current flow to ground will radiate EMF inside the cage.

As for grounding mats, afaik, the direct connection with earth rebalances ions in the body that get charged by exposure to EMF/RF etc.

That's pseudoscience doubletalk. The number of websites making those claims doesn't make it any less pseudoscience.

Do you have some evidence to back up this claim? I can't find any scientific evidence to support the human body acting as more of an RF antenna when using a properly installed earth grounding mat? I don't think a HAM radio can be compared to a human body.

Not a HAM radio; a vertical antenna, which depends on a real or virtual (some conductors spread out in mid-air at the base) ground. A person walking on the ground is a vertical conductor, and thus will have currents induced by EMFs (depending on frequency). My antenna theory is a bit rusty, but the current in the antenna (or body) has to flow somewhere, and the lower the resistance to ground, the higher the current. If your feet are insulated from ground, there won't be a current flowing into or out of your body.

From one of your websites: "The Earthing equipment is not always reducing the electric field. In fact, by being connected to the ground, you are now part of the very pathway by which all nearby electromagnetic frequencies (including wireless frequencies) will pass through to the Earth and your home electrical system. This will actually add to the EMF pollution that your body is dealing with, rather than reducing it or protecting you."

I checked those three websites, and they're obviously pseudoscience sites involved with selling products.

For example: "The conductive material allows for the transfer of free electrons from the Earth into your body,". That's false, because static charges don't flow into your body, they flow (if there's a potential difference) to the exterior of your conductive material. The electrons do not seek out and destroy free radicals inside your body. A lot of the claims on those sites are misapplied science or simply misleading through implications, such as "connecting you to the Earth's (implying natural, healthy, Mother earth Goddess) electric field".

"Our modern lifestyles often keep us physically separated from the Earth’s surface, which can lead to an accumulation of positive charge in our bodies." Again, you don't accumulate positive--or negative--charges inside your body; and charge imbalance results in the excess charges appearing on the exterior of your body. That's basic physics, determined by simple math (the charges maximize distance from each other). There's no excess charge inside your body interacting with molecules, even if you charge yourself up with megavolts wrt earth ground.

One of those sites says "We believe (meaning it's actually false, but can't disprove belief in court) that free radicals are neutralized by electrons from any source". Well, no. Connecting a metal bowl of free radicals to ground will not neutralize those molecules. They are neutralized by bonding with other molecules that have an excess electron available for bonding.

"This electromagnetic interference can create havoc within the 50 trillion cells of your body – all of which communicate using tiny electric signals." OMG!!! Panic!!!! Here's my credit card, send me the grounding mat now!!!!

Yes, our cells generate tiny electric and magnetic fields. It takes very sensitive equipment to pick up the signal from a single cell, partly due to the low power, and partly due to the cell being a physically tiny antenna at those frequencies. The latter also makes them very inefficient antennas at receiving external signal. A cell-sized metal wire is not going to develop a strong induced current due to 60 Hz EMF, and a tiny poorly-conducting bag of fluid will be even worse.

I'm sure I could find more examples of misleading claims or outright lies on those sites. Choose better sources of information, ones that don't have a conflict of interest (selling products, seminars, etc).

 

[moltenlead]

Choose better sources of information, ones that don't have a conflict of interest (selling products, seminars, etc).

Since neither of us are experts and whilst I tried to present links both pro and con grounding mats, I suggest that rather than cherry pick quotes you disagree with from the links, you find sources of information that you can link to that back up your own claims if possible please?

 

[hapl808]

Honestly, I skim the long explanations. It's all unproven science, and it all sounds sketchy. If I didn't experience EMF sensitivity, I'm sure I wouldn't believe it.

As it is, I'm not a researcher so I only care if something helps me. Unfortunately, turning off the wifi router on my desk made a big difference. Annoying, but I get migraines much less often now - and my baseline headache isn't as bad. I bought one of those shielding caps - it's kinda comfy, but I don't think it does much. We had a power outage the other day and my headache improved even more - but I don't think I can get everyone in the neighborhood to stop using electricity, and I'm in no position to move.

I tend not to buy stuff if it's not returnable. I kept the cap because it was comfortable to wear and not expensive. Turning off my wifi cost me nothing - well, actually I bought a powerline adapter so I could use a laptop in bed with a wired connection.

Discussing theory is interesting sometimes, but I'm mostly just results focused. Theory is just a way for me to decide if something might be worth trying, so it functions similarly to anecdotal reports. In the end, the only thing I care about is if I feel better or worse.

 

[Wishful]

I suggest that rather than cherry pick quotes you disagree with from the links, you find sources of information that you can link to that back up your own claims if possible please?

Basic physics textbooks. They'll explain how Faraday Cages work, and how static charges move on a body, or the mathematics of antennas (with and without grounds). I suppose a biochemistry textbook will explain why "free radicals are neutralized by electrons from any source" is pure nonsense. Any web site making that claim cannot be trusted.

A quick check turned up this page: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2015/ra/c4ra13315c It's an explanation of free radicals, antioxidants, and the reaction mechanisms; textbook explanations. While it lists plenty of antioxidants, it doesn't have any entries for "free electrons" or grounding. Free radicals are neutralized by other molecules, not free electrons.

Also, really dramatic claims, such as "electromagnetic interference can create havoc within the 50 trillion cells of your body", should be an obvious warning sign. Science doesn't need dramatic claims; mathematical equations and chemical equations do the job quite nicely. Dramatic claims are often used to distract victims from the falsity of the claims.

 

[Wishful]

If I didn't experience EMF sensitivity, I'm sure I wouldn't believe it.

Have you done any proper double-blinded experiments to test it? Knowing that a router is on or off, or there's a blackout, can change how you judge the severity of your symptoms. The real test is when you don't know the EMF environment, and check the symptoms correlations afterward.

I'm skeptical about EMF sensitivity because of the lack of theoretical explanations for it and the quality (lack thereof) of the anecdotal evidence and poorly designed studies. There have been lots of examples of claimed "science", such as ESP or ghosts or whatever else, with large numbers of fervent supporters, that failed when tested honestly. It's easy to be swayed by obvious supporting events (feel worse when a new cell tower is installed nearby), but also easy to dismiss counterevidence (the tower had been installed and operating a week before you noticed it, without suffering extra symptoms). I also consider the lack of trustworthy studies supporting the claim to be important. If it's such a strong effect, why doesn't is show up in a proper study?

 

[hapl808]

Have you done any proper double-blinded experiments to test it? Knowing that a router is on or off, or there's a blackout, can change how you judge the severity of your symptoms. The real test is when you don't know the EMF environment, and check the symptoms correlations afterward.

I have not, beyond once or twice thinking my headache was unusually bad and realizing somehow the router had reset to be on. Or with the blackout when my initial concern was being unable to see my way around the house which gave me a bit of anxiety as I didn't want to fall, but then realizing I simultaneously felt much more relaxed with less headache. My HRV also seemed to improve a bit.

This isn't a double-blind experiment - almost nothing on this site is? It just improved my health. Like your cumin - we have no way to know if that's placebo, but I think placebo effects are overstated in the long term.

The problem with placebo is it's harder to use for long term tests. This is why horrific pesticides made their way into the environment with claims that they were safe. Because for some people, low exposures led to no immediate effects. Yet there are numerous case reports of damage - which the industry waved off as psychosomatic as usual (the pushback against Silent Spring, etc).

Like pesticides, my guess is EMF has wildly different effects on different people. Some people may be affected in relatively short term, some in longer periods, some over months or years.

I'd love to see a serious experiment, but the ones I've seen are a joke that are clearly designed to get a psychosomatic outcome. Like feeding someone DDT at hugely low levels and asking them which food tastes better. You'd get random chance - even if it were slowly destroying the person's liver.

Again as I've said many times - I don't care if it's wifi or placebo or ancient Chinese curse. Plenty of people would think 100% of the people on this forum are just mentally ill. I'm not a researcher. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone.

All I care about is feeling physically better. I tried all the DNRS stuff even though it sounded ridiculous - it did nothing for me. I tried cumin - it seemed to make a small improvement when I was crashing, but nothing significant. Magnesium threonate doesn't seem to help me even though it sounds so promising for my issues, but magnesium citrate seems to help more. None of those things have adequate double blind tests - just my own experience.

I tried turning off the router a few times when I initially heard about this issue - I slept exactly the same and so I forgot about it for awhile. Then I added a repeater because my signal was bad in the bedroom, and I noticed my headaches seemed worse and Garmin Battery was lower. So I removed the repeater, and then eventually tried leaving the router off during the day (when I sat at the desk next to it), and it made a gigantic difference.

I didn't want this to be true because wifi is very convenient.

Double blind tests are good ways to test drugs. I think they are generally crappy and poorly used when designed to test if chronic illness symptoms are 'real', seeing as the symptoms can change drastically with no interventions whatsoever. Plus many interventions are hard to control. This is true in ME/CFS, MS, etc.

Luckily, I don't need double blind research to access my ability to turn off the router on my desk.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

but that people with compromised or damaged blood brain barriers can respond negatively to much lower levels of EMF.

I was extremely run down or having not slept for at least 36 hours, when I was able to hear and feel the EMF.

I cannot detect it when I"m not run down.

MCS is similar for me. In PEM, or acutely run down, smells can trigger a huge negative reaction. I cannot stand the smell of newspaper, or a magazine. It's very acute. I have far less noticeable reactions when I"m not in PEM or run down for some other reason.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I won't be re-enacting not sleeping for 36 hours and being 22 years old. Now I am 70.

I experience direct benefits from applying bio magnets. Acupuncture works for a variety of problems not ME related. I never tried to use acupuncture for ME, because the herbs are more effective for chronic conditions.

Why would strong EMF NOT affect bodies that are energetic?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I tried all the DNRS stuff even though it sounded ridiculous - it did nothing for me.

I spent over four years, doing "stuff" including hours resting and meditating in a chair, in order to transmute this illness into something else.

Instead I got worse.

 

[Wishful]

Why would strong EMF NOT affect bodies that are energetic?

If by energetic you mean healthy, I think being healthy allows us to ignore minor symptoms more easily. If you're lying in bed feeling really lousy, you're more likely to notice every little twitch, itch, ache or discomfort. You might also notice noises, light changes, smells, etc, that simply wouldn't register if you were healthy and most likely focused on some interest or activity.

Also, "strong" is undefined. One person might define that as the typical EMF strength from house wiring powering a 100W light bulb. Another might define it as the field strengths found in restricted areas of a power station. Likewise wifi router vs radar antenna pumping out megawatts. Megawatts of microwaves will affect (ie. cook) bodies healthy or unhealthy.

I see the question more as why would microwatts or milliwatts of EMFs at a given frequency have a noticeable effect on biological organisms (aside from specific known ones, such as photosynthesis or vision)? AFAIK, there are no proven theories or strong evidence to support that. Most of the people who are convinced of EMF effects at typical levels seem to be lacking in understanding of the basic physics and chemistry involved. They read that grounding allows electrons to enter the body and neutralize free radicals, and that sounds "sciency" and they accept it ... and all the claims based on that, even though it's false at the basic science level.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

If by energetic you mean healthy

I mean our bodies operate using the laws of physics and chemistry, which involves electromagnetic fields etc.

Quantum physics, etc.

For instance, if I ask online, Google produces this statement:

"Low-frequency magnetic fields induce circulating currents within the human body. The strength of these currents depends on the intensity of the outside magnetic field. If sufficiently large, these currents could cause stimulation of nerves and muscles or affect other biological processes."

Acupuncture needles induce circulating currents in the body.

Biomagnets affect circulating currents.

Given my direct experience, EMF is a THING that is real and exists. Whether is bothering my body or not, seems to depend upon my overall state of wellness.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

This review article looks interesting: Im not reading science papers today....

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13534-024-00366-3

Bioelectric medicine: unveiling the therapeutic potential of micro-current stimulation​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9941239/

Physiological effects of microcurrent and its application for maximising acute responses and chronic adaptations to exercise​

 

[Judee]

Or with the blackout when my initial concern was being unable to see my way around the house which gave me a bit of anxiety as I didn't want to fall,

Can you get a headgear flashlight (like miners use) so you have it if the power goes out again? Or maybe an emergency back up light that goes on automatically if the power goes out?

I have flashlights everywhere in my house but they would be hard for you to carry maybe while using crutches.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

but they would be hard for you to carry maybe while using crutches.

I used to have a small mag light, hanging from a short lanyard, and I put it around my neck and both hands are free, it lights up the ground below for walking and you can chop vegetables.

People keep giving my husband flashlights that cause permanent blindness.

 

[hapl808]

If you're lying in bed feeling really lousy, you're more likely to notice every little twitch, itch, ache or discomfort. You might also notice noises, light changes, smells, etc, that simply wouldn't register if you were healthy and most likely focused on some interest or activity.

This is the argument from certain back alleys of psychiatry. All ME/CFS is just SSD - people who are hyper fixated on 'real' symptoms, but to an unreasonable degree. Possibly cumin didn't help you, but you thought it did so you stopped focusing on the physical symptoms?

As you can probably tell, I think this is a spurious line of reasoning designed to psychologize physical disease. You could say this about pretty much everything you've ever reported on this forum. Almost all your experiments are trying something, stopping it, trying it again. None are double blinded placebo controlled studies, so you might have biased yourself.

Most of the people who are convinced of EMF effects at typical levels seem to be lacking in understanding of the basic physics and chemistry involved.

This goes for most medicine as well. We make up stories for why SSRIs are antidepressants using strange animal models for human 'depression', or why cumin works, or whatever. Or why we should or shouldn't take arsenic, or get radical mastectomies, and so forth.

As you've advocated (very well, I think), the best thing to do is safely trial things and see if they help you.

Now you're advocating the opposite. "Don't believe your senses - you're probably mistaken."

Everyone tends to do this for their own pet theories. I do it for DNRS - because it didn't work for me, I'm more likely to present reasons why when it does 'work', it's just people being brainwashed into thinking they improved. But I try to be cautious on that, because maybe the people it worked on had something else going on. Maybe it really worked for them.

So I'm putting forward no certainty as to why wifi bothers me - just that I feel better with it off. I'll let others do the research on why.

However, I strongly disagree with anyone who is on a forum for a mostly unprovable illness with an unknown etiology, but who thinks they are the arbiter of what causes illness.

Now, discussing possible mechanisms and science is fine - that could be good for those who are interested. But just because you're not sure why something might be damaging at 'typical' levels, has nothing to do with whether it is or isn't. Again, same arguments were made with DDT about how the absolutely minuscule levels that were regulated were totally safe. Oops.

 

[hapl808]

I have not, beyond once or twice thinking my headache was unusually bad and realizing somehow the router had reset to be on.

In addition, @Wishful - I didn't do a placebo controlled study, but I did notice a couple times when the router was on when I thought it was off and didn't know why my headache was so bad. I've never had vice versa happen.

I also noticed (after the fact) that all my symptoms had worsened after installing a repeater near my bedroom. These were also numeric Garmin readings (Battery in the morning). When I removed the repeater, my symptoms (and numbers) improved.

None of this is definitive, but it's more data than a lot of interventions have.

 

[hapl808]

I think it's also annoying because brain fog and constant headaches are some of my most intractable issues, and people rarely have any useful suggestions. If something works, that's great. I find it frustrating when people argue with you - whether it's the ones who tell you yoga will actually cure you, or the ones who tell you magnesium isn't really helping and it's your imagination.

I found turning off wifi maybe gave me a mild improvement. Still completely debilitating. Maybe I went from a 3/10 to a 4/10.

Things I've tried with less benefit or harm: ginger, passion flower, lion's mane, reishi, cumin, NAC, saffron, fisetin, skullcap, knotweed, kudzu, methylation stuff, vitamin c, BCAA, eleuthero, ginseng, lemon balm, d-limonene, fenugreek, theanine, LOLA, vitamin d, citrulline, taurine, CoQ10, ginkgo, guaifenesin, guanfacine, propranolol, testosterone, and so forth.

Things that actually helped a bit: ibuprofen (I don't like taking regularly), turning off wifi, antibiotics (huge help the first time, never could replicate), antifungals (mixed results), allicin (diminishing returns), caffeine (only helpful if I use it occasionally), alcohol (helpful for 30 mins, then miserable for two days), magnesium (small gains with certain forms), etc.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I think it's also annoying because brain fog and constant headaches are some of my most intractable issues,

me too, but my vision is hugely intertwined with the brain issue. Today is the first day in six weeks I seem to be able to somewhat focus my eyes when I got up.

I have constant dull lower brain/neck throb, hence the bio magnets work pretty well when that intensifies. It's nice to have something to deploy, which is not a pill and I try to avoid taking pain killers frequently.

When I moved, I had to throw away some very valuable THC/CBD type topical products I sure wish I still had.