Active B12 Protocol Basics

[surfbaby]

I'd like to find an alternative to Enzy, too...it's got an awful lot of sugar in it. That's why I went from it to CL. Keeping that much of it in your mouth for a long period of time can't be good for oral health, and recent experience tells me that good oral health is as important as supplements if you want to feel good. I'm still waiting to see on that, but I think it matters a lot more than most of us think.

Probably you can overcome the sugar problem if you just brush and floss your teeth a couple times per day, rinse with some mouthwash a few times. Just throwing it out there, because Enzy does have a lot of sugar. I wish they'd take it out.

I am fairly new to the forum and have been on FP for a little over a month. I came across this post of yours and wondered if you ever figured out what the long-term effect of using the Enzy was? I too find that it has way too much sugar, and I think it might irritate my mouth which is sensitive. Otherwise it has been agreeing with me, but I am only taking 1000mcg 3x/day.

I was thinking about switching to CL 5mg when my dosages get higher. Freddd said it doesn't absorb as well, but others seem to like it better. Just wondering what you ended up doing? Meanwhile after each dose I rinse my mouth thoroughly after it has dissolved, and do brush and floss twice a day. Thanks!

 

[garyfritz]

I believe the CL absorbs a lot better if you give it lots of time in contact with your oral mucosa. If you suck on a 5mg CL, it will be gone in a few minutes and very little of it soaks into your bloodstream. (And the rest goes into your stomach where very little is usable.)

Place it between your lip and gum, and it lasts much longer. Break it into quarters, and there will be a piece in contact with your skin 4x longer. I think that works much better.

Another option is transdermal delivery. That's what's worked best for me.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/

 

[whodathunkit]

@surfbaby, I can't comment on the ramifications of different lozenges because I switched to injections a couple years ago and that's what I still use. They are prescribed by a doctor and I have to get them in a compounding pharmacy.

That said, if I lose the injections for some reason I'll probably go to the transdermal oils like @garyfritz said. Also second his point about leaving the lozenges between cheek and gum for a longer amount of time. But if your lozenge has a lot of sugar then you're back to the original question of potential irritation and other side effects on teeth and gums from that.

 

[surfbaby]

@surfbaby, I can't comment on the ramifications of different lozenges because I switched to injections a couple years ago and that's what I still use. They are prescribed by a doctor and I have to get them in a compounding pharmacy.

That said, if I lose the injections for some reason I'll probably go to the transdermal oils like @garyfritz said. Also second his point about leaving the lozenges between cheek and gum for a longer amount of time. But if your lozenge has a lot of sugar then you're back to the original question of potential irritation and other side effects on teeth and gums from that.

Thanks to you and @garyfritz for your replies. I am still such a newbie that I think I will stay where I'm at for now, but as I progress I hope you won't mind if I post you again for more details on the methods you are both currently using. I will try @garyfritz suggestions about CL in the future.

I did injections 10 years ago when I had severe nerve damage from a B12 deficiency caused by a different medical protocol (not related to methylation), but it was hard for me to find the right injection dose with compounded MB12. For some reason Hydroxy B12 injections + MB12 sublinguals worked better for me at that time, but Hydroxy is contraindicated with FP, isn't it still? Ironically back then, I was on a different B12 forum with someone named Fred who was really the expert about B12 (and I'm certain is Freddd), but that was before we knew about MF.

 

[whodathunkit]

but Hydroxy is contraindicated with FP, isn't it still?

That depends on what works best for the individual. If hydroxy works better for you (fewer sides or just a better response or what-have-you), then that's what you should use.

Type of B12 may have something to do with snps (some snps are supposed to work better with hydroxy), but from what I've read it's probably better not to get all hung up on snps and what is *supposed* to work with them. Do whatever works for you and don't do (or modify) whatever doesn't. And if something stops working or starts causing you problems after doing you some good, then by all means take steps to figure out why.

For Freddd's methylation protocol, for example, people often have an initially good response and then they start having problems. The choices are to power through the bad sides (doesn't work for everyone, it did for me), reduce dosages to mitigate the bad sides, or stop the protocol altogether. What you do in such a case is up to you based on what you've read and what you think is the right thing to do. Also the degree of discomfort involved, as well as what you can tolerate.

Main point being, do what works for you. Don't get all hung up on dogma.

 

[surfbaby]

That depends on what works best for the individual. If hydroxy works better for you (fewer sides or just a better response or what-have-you), then that's what you should use.

Type of B12 may have something to do with snps (some snps are supposed to work better with hydroxy), but from what I've read it's probably better not to get all hung up on snps and what is *supposed* to work with them. Do whatever works for you and don't do (or modify) whatever doesn't. And if something stops working or starts causing you problems after doing you some good, then by all means take steps to figure out why.

For Freddd's methylation protocol, for example, people often have an initially good response and then they start having problems. The choices are to power through the bad sides (doesn't work for everyone, it did for me), reduce dosages to mitigate the bad sides, or stop the protocol altogether. What you do in such a case is up to you based on what you've read and what you think is the right thing to do. Also the degree of discomfort involved, as well as what you can tolerate.

Main point being, do what works for you. Don't get all hung up on dogma.

Thanks for sharing another point of view. I'm planning to power thru the bad sides like you did and try to figure things out for as long as I can handle it.

For now the Enzy MB12 sublingual works just fine--seeing your old post just reminded me that I was worried about the sugar affecting my teeth/gums. We will see what happens with CL 5mg when I get to bigger doses. It was only the MB12 injections that didn't make me feel as as good as the Hydroxy injections, but the MB12 sublinguals continued to work well after the hydroxy injections were decreased. Of course the science and the way MD's treated B22 deficiency was all different back then 10 years ago, and people just didn't commonly know all the things they know now about genes, MF, etc. I still haven't had my testing done yet, because what attracted me to FP was that you could get started on it without testing. However I do plan to get it done as soon as I can.

Do you have any testing recommendations? Caledonia listed for Detox SNPs info - Detoxigenomics/ MTHFRsupport.com, and also 23andme and Genetic Genie in her Methylation links. Offhand I can't remember exactly what SNPs are, but I've read about them in posts. Seems like MTHFR is the most important mutation if that's all you can afford, but what others do you think are most important? Thanks!

 

[Moshi]

I make a "methylation-juice" every morning that works for me, in a glass of juice i mix in:
D-ribose powder - Ca 3 grams
TMG crystals powder - ca 300mg (jarrow)
L-methionine powder - ca 500mg (source naturals)
L-carnitine powder - ca 700 mg (now/carnipure)
MeCbl- liquid 1ml=1000 mcg (douglas labs)
Liquid CoEnzym Q10, ca 20mg

With this I swallow 2 capsules kirkman 5-MTHF 1mg (=2 mg total) and 1 douglas labs B-complex w metafolin.

This works for me
I take MeCbl subcutaneous injections 2/week, other days I use the jarrow merhyl B-12 5000 mcg lozengers (2/day, one tablet split in half)

 

[whodathunkit]

Do you have any testing recommendations?

Sorry, I don't. I go on my symptoms and how I feel most of the time, and use any labs I get to verify whether or not I'm on the right track. Basically, since it's about how I feel, anyway, I just don't do a whole lot of testing. Plus, not paying for a bunch of labs that can't tell me how I feel, anyway (for example, according to my labs I shouldn't need mB12 shots daily but if I slack off with them it catches up with me and I feel it), just frees up more of my hard-earned for supplements.

Edited to add: Just realized you probably meant like 23&me. I second Caledonia's recommendation on that. It's relatively cheap ($99) and it was enlightening to get the results (for example, my snps explain my apparent need for extra mB12 and also my life-long hypersensitivity to caffeine). But it didn't change the way I do anything. For me, what I do with supplements is definitely about how I feel.

 

[Marc_NL]

and also my life-long hypersensitivity to caffeine

Which (combination of) SNP's is that?
I cannot tolerate coffee since about 20 or 25 years, would be interesting to find out why.

 

[surfbaby]

I make a "methylation-juice" every morning that works for me, in a glass of juice i mix in:
D-ribose powder - Ca 3 grams
TMG crystals powder - ca 300mg (jarrow)
L-methionine powder - ca 500mg (source naturals)
L-carnitine powder - ca 700 mg (now/carnipure)
MeCbl- liquid 1ml=1000 mcg (douglas labs)
Liquid CoEnzym Q10, ca 20mg

With this I swallow 2 capsules kirkman 5-MTHF 1mg (=2 mg total) and 1 douglas labs B-complex w metafolin.

This works for me
I take MeCbl subcutaneous injections 2/week, other days I use the jarrow merhyl B-12 5000 mcg lozengers (2/day, one tablet split in half)

Thanks for the info. Due to a complicated history, I am really extremely sensitive to almost everything, especially anything new (which I feel will improve with FP), so for now I need to keep things really simple with very few components. But seeing what other people are doing is very helpful for making future adjustments to my protocol!

I have a feeling I'll eventually end up doing the MB12 subcutaneous injections again. Do you know what concentration of serum you are using? When I used to get mine compounded they recommended a stronger concentration so I could use less serum in the syringe, but it always seem too strong to me even at very small doses. It looked very thick and dark like blood.

Can't do the Jarrow MB12 because of the citric acid. Have you ever tried the Country Life 5 mg? I've heard mixed reviews about it. In the most recent posts I could find, Freddd seemed to like it more than the Jarrow but not as much as Enzy.

 

[ahmo]

@surfbaby CL 5mg B12 workw fine for me. I may have a drier mouth than some, it would last always more than an hour in my gums.

 

[surfbaby]

Sorry, I don't. I go on my symptoms and how I feel most of the time, and use any labs I get to verify whether or not I'm on the right track. Basically, since it's about how I feel, anyway, I just don't do a whole lot of testing. Plus, not paying for a bunch of labs that can't tell me how I feel, anyway (for example, according to my labs I shouldn't need mB12 shots daily but if I slack off with them it catches up with me and I feel it), just frees up more of my hard-earned for supplements.

Edited to add: Just realized you probably meant like 23&me. I second Caledonia's recommendation on that. It's relatively cheap ($99) and it was enlightening to get the results (for example, my snps explain my apparent need for extra mB12 and also my life-long hypersensitivity to caffeine). But it didn't change the way I do anything. For me, what I do with supplements is definitely about how I feel.

I agree and also like the idea of going by symptoms. Being such a newbie, it's still kind of hard to figure out which dosages I'm doing are helping or hurting. I'm trying to go by lists of symptoms that Freddd has posted to figure out if I'm over methylating or having paradoxical folate deficiency, etc., but not always sure if I'm increasing MF too fast or need more MB12.

I've been increasing MF by 100mcg every 1-2 days per suggestion from ahmo, and was also increasing MB12 regularly but not as much lately, because don't know why but I kind of had the feeling I needed to get my MF up higher more quickly. Right now I'm kind of at a standstill with MB12, because I'm not sure if I have my ratio to MF right.

Currently I am taking 500mcg Solgar MF 3x/day = total MF 1,500mcg/day (including 100mcg in 1/4 capsule Pure Encap. B-Complex) and 1,000mcg Enzy MB12 3x/day = total MB12 3,000mcg/day. Does that seem like a good ratio? (I take MB12 30-60 min. after MF per 2/23/13 Freddd post, or do you think at same time is better? Many do it that way for convenience.) I also take a crumb (around 100-300mcg) of SN AdB12 with p.m. MB12, and 1/6 capsule LCF 2x/day (that's all I can tolerate of AdB12/LCF for now but steadily increasing).

Some days like yesterday, I wake up feeling great and not sure why. Usually it's a mixed bag of some old symptoms being flared (mostly skin issues, lips, mouth), but at the same time many symptoms are improving (eyes, brain, IBS). I do feel more fatigued now at times than I did before, but that could be from healing and detoxing. I also have times when I feel more motivated or great and happy for no apparent reason, and feel like the old me is coming back to life. Makes it hard to know when I'm on the right track. Any suggestions?

I was actually thinking of doing the 23&me test first. Do they explain on the report how to interpret SNPS etc.? If not, is it easy to find interpretive info on the forum, or elsewhere online? Thanks!

 

[surfbaby]

@surfbaby CL 5mg B12 workw fine for me. I may have a drier mouth than some, it would last always more than an hour in my gums.

Thanks for that input! I have a drier mouth too. I will try the CL 5m when my MB12 dose gets up a little higher, probably before I attempt to go to transdermal or injections.

 

[whodathunkit]

Some days like yesterday, I wake up feeling great and not sure why. Usually it's a mixed bag of some old symptoms being flared (mostly skin issues, lips, mouth), but at the same time many symptoms are improving (eyes, brain, IBS). I do feel more fatigued now at times than I did before, but that could be from healing and detoxing. I also have times when I feel more motivated or great and happy for no apparent reason, and feel like the old me is coming back to life. Makes it hard to know when I'm on the right track. Any suggestions?

IMO, if you feel like the old you is coming back that means you are on the right track. Doesn't mean this protocol will cure you (I have had to add other things in like gut therapy to get where I am, which is basically where Sherpa is minus the frolicking because IMO I'm still too fat to where a bathing suit effectively ), but it's a great start.

It also doesn't mean you won't backslide a bit at some point. But my motto became "Three steps forwards and two steps back is still a net gain of a step, which is progress".

I call the ups and downs and energy and symptom fluctuation on the methylation protocol "the rollercoaster". You may crash a few times (I crashed with the flu or very bad cold like 5x the first year), and go into the donut hole/methyltrap off and on. Digestive symptoms and mouth/epithelial symptoms are classic indications for me that I need to increase my folate. Seem to be for lots of people. But if after each crash or set back you feel even a little bit better than you did before, then you're still on the right track. If that doesn't happen and you feel like you're losing ground when you crash or set back, then you need to tweak your approach. That may mean adding in other co-factors, tweaking dosage, stopping this or that for a while, etc. It's a pretty pain-staking process, but worthwhile if you can manage the wherewithal to see it through.

 

[Nikki7]

Quick question if anyone can help me out...I'm new to this protocol. I started out around 2000 mcg a day approx one week ago. I had terrible nerve pain. The B12 immediately helped me. Today I have felt just numb--almost no feeling at times. I am wondering if I need to up my B12...if that's why I don't feel much of anything. I'm still waiting on my l carnitine to come in. I cannot tell if 5mthf makes me feel better or worse or what. Any direction would be great. I'm worried about just passing out..just kind of have that feeling. I did get checked by doctor yesterday--seem to have a huge potassium need, and I'm drinking lots of coconut water. Waiting on that to come back.

 

[Nikki7]

One other question...my doctor told be I only need B12 per my testing---I don't think he knows a ton on the topic. He said my folate levels are good. Would I still need to supplement 5MTHF? I am unwell with nerve and muscle pain and declining rapidly. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[stridor]

Hi Nikki7,
If a dr is picking up on the K+, you know you have a problem! Consider taking K+ supplements which you can buy at the health food store. Do a site search and you can see that some people needed more help than coconut water can provide.
Also many of us feel worse in the initial days. K+ is often identified as a likely culprit but I suspect that it is not that clear. Whatever, I didn't feel so hot for about 12 days. But that was me. See what others advise but I would just hold tight until you feel that the K+ issue has been addressed.

 

[Boncho]

I don't know if this has been posted yet but i found this information very useful for understanding the important of b12.
Hope this helps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvEizypoyO0

 

[Matt_C]

Hi. I've read through the protocol several times and i'm still confused about what to do if there is a "paradoxical folate insufficiency" and how to properly identify if that is what is happening, or whether it's start-up or some other problem. I'm about 3-4 weeks into methylation and i've had a positive response to B12's and some start-up symptoms that caused me to back off a bit a couple of times. I had initial improvement in energy, sleep quality, cognition, etc and some detox/die-off symptoms too but for a few days now I've hit a bit of a wall. I've ben pretty fatigued and tired, not sleeping well, a touch unbalanced on my feet, etc. I had one day in between where I felt really good, better than i've felt in a long time with noticeable improvement in my visual perception so i'm guessing the path to recovery is a bumpy one. Am I right? I feel like i'm on the right track.

I'm unsure about how to titrate methylfolate up until symptoms subside...is it by increasing it by 1/2 - 1 dose per day? So if we need 30mg it could take 30-60 days to get there, right? How long do we keep dosing that high? When we reduce, what dose do we reduce to? I'm struggling to know what to do with my current symptoms. Is it start-up and I just need to push through it, or can I feel better by making some adjustments? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

 

[stridor]

]Hi. I've read through the protocol several times and i'm still confused about what to do if there is a "paradoxical folate insufficiency"

Make sure that you have enough mB12 and that you do not have a significant source of folic acid. Many of us needed to have niacin on hand in the early days until we sorted things out. It will deal with extra methyl groups. I had a need of this from time to time until I went from one needle a day to two. I just needed more B12 than some people (but a lot less than others).
The road can be rough, yes, many times this is due to potassium insufficiency. Lots of posts on that around here. I guess I am not as familiar with the protocol as I thought. 30 mg of mfolate? Is that what it says?
Everyone is going to be different. It is more of a trial and error than follow a recipe. Some people take 2 mg of mfolate a day and some higher. There are those who are taking 20 mg a day but I am not sure whether they are absorbing it well. Hope you can. I have to put it under my tongue.
So, push up the B12, watch the potassium - most of us needed some at first, watch the B2 there will be extra demands on it. gradual increase in mfolate....and then adenosylcobalamin and l-carnitine fumerate, if you are following Freddd's ideas.