Can High Strength Vitamin B1 trigger thryoid or other endo-related issues?

[Guwop2]

Hello,
Last October I was trying a new supplement regime for ME/CFS that involved taking High-Strength Vitamin B1, however, within about 2 weeks of taking the high strenght Vitamin B1 I found an increase in fatigue symptoms that were not totally in line with previous ME/CFS symptoms I had - so i immediately stopped taking it. I found I was much more sensitive to physical movement and my abililty to concentrate was severely impaired. It is now January and these symptoms from the High-dose B1 have not abated. Ive contacted my GP who i will speak to on Monday and plan to ask for a thryoid test (my levels have always been with 'heathy' range, though at a slightly lower-end), but I was wondering if there is any possibility that this B1 regiment may have contributed to developing thyroud issues? And if not, perhaps I should request some other tests? Any advice would be appreciated, thanks

 

[Mary]

@Guwop2 - B1 triggered a refeeding syndrome reaction for me. It caused my phosphorous levels to drop which caused severe fatigue. The B1 initially boosted my energy quite a bit for a day or 2, and then the severe fatigue hit.

This has a good explanation of refeeding syndrome: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440847/

Generally refeeding syndrome affects persons who are severely malnourished - but, persons with ME/CFS seem to be susceptible to it. Many people here had their potassium levels drop a lot after starting B12 or folate. That happened to me as well. I think our cells cannot absorb or utilize nutrients properly - maybe they're in a state of starvation . . . I don't know.

I figured out that low phosphorous was the problem after starting B1 - first, because potassium didn't do anything to help with the fatigue and I read in the above link that hypophosphatemia is the hallmark of refeeding syndrome. Dairy products are high in phosphorous so as an experiment after the fatigue hit, I drank about 3 glasses of kefir and within a few hours the fatigue started to dissipate. I've had to take a phosphorous supplement ever since, several times a week, to be able to keep taking the B1.

I haven't heard about B1 causing thyroid issues though it is a very powerful nutrient.

 

[datadragon]

however, within about 2 weeks of taking the high strenght Vitamin B1 I found an increase in fatigue symptoms that were not totally in line with previous ME/CFS symptoms I had - It is now January and these symptoms from the High-dose B1 have not abated.

Interesting. The possibility is that because B1 lowers zinc which is already going to have lowered uptake and availability during inflammation or infection with the presence of pro inflammatory cytokines, you may initially improve on the benefits of b1 then eventually can have a further increased zinc deficiency using a high b1 dose if the pro inflammatory cytokines are not resolved which would lead to thyroid issues which have a strong requirement for zinc (and Vitamin A) and worsening of ME/CFS symptoms according to the research so far.

As an example, vitamins E and B1 stimulate adrenal anabolic hormone production and can therefore produce a zinc deficiency by increasing its requirement during anabolism. https://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Zinc.pdf

 

[linusbert]

also some folks get automatically worse over the winter month and improve again in spring. that could be a factor too.

 

[Guwop2]

Interesting. The possibility is that because B1 lowers zinc which is already going to have lowered uptake and availability during inflammation or infection with the presence of pro inflammatory cytokines, you may initially improve on the benefits of b1 then eventually can have a further increased zinc deficiency using a high b1 dose if the pro inflammatory cytokines are not resolved which would lead to thyroid issues which have a strong requirement for zinc (and Vitamin A) and worsening of ME/CFS symptoms according to the research so far.

As an example, vitamins E and B1 stimulate adrenal anabolic hormone production and can therefore produce a zinc deficiency by increasing its requirement during anabolism. https://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Zinc.pdf

Thank you for this. I'm struggling to read and write at the moment, but I gather I should try introducing zinc into my diet and see if that may help. Thing is, I stoped taking B1 (500mg) in October, but the problem persists - would this problem have continued despite the absense of B1?

 

[Guwop2]

@Guwop2 - B1 triggered a refeeding syndrome reaction for me. It caused my phosphorous levels to drop which caused severe fatigue. The B1 initially boosted my energy quite a bit for a day or 2, and then the severe fatigue hit.

This has a good explanation of refeeding syndrome: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440847/

Generally refeeding syndrome affects persons who are severely malnourished - but, persons with ME/CFS seem to be susceptible to it. Many people here had their potassium levels drop a lot after starting B12 or folate. That happened to me as well. I think our cells cannot absorb or utilize nutrients properly - maybe they're in a state of starvation . . . I don't know.

I figured out that low phosphorous was the problem after starting B1 - first, because potassium didn't do anything to help with the fatigue and I read in the above link that hypophosphatemia is the hallmark of refeeding syndrome. Dairy products are high in phosphorous so as an experiment after the fatigue hit, I drank about 3 glasses of kefir and within a few hours the fatigue started to dissipate. I've had to take a phosphorous supplement ever since, several times a week, to be able to keep taking the B1.

I haven't heard about B1 causing thyroid issues though it is a very powerful nutrient.

much appreciated for your reposnse, im struggling to read and write at the moment so I gather from your response that I should perhaps try increasing my dair intake and see what happens. I already eat a fair bit of yoghurt - I eat Skyr whcih is high protein. Perhaps it;s also relevant to note that im on a strict keto diet. Basically just protein (chicken and brocolli everyday, with eggs and cheese on crackers for breakfast) - even the yoghurt I eat is zero fat. Added to that is the fact I only eat 2 meals, first meal at 11 and second meal at 5 ish, so im fasting for a fair beat in between. Perhaps I should also stop the fasting and see if things improve.

Also should add, that unlike you the B1 had no positive effect - i didnt feel any uplift from taking it.

 

[lenora]

I'm going off my lyrica very soon. I'll do it slowly and carefully. The reason I'm saying this is b/c most of us should probably go on vitamins, supplements, herbs, etc., the very same way. See what our bodies can deal with and after a few weeks we'll know. None of it is easy, I do understand.

To be honest, I dread going off lyrica. It's a fine drug for pain (most of it), but definitely has weight control problems. I don't overeat, so that isn't the problem, but a diet drug this isn't.

I'm replacing it with megabiome (containing thiamine - B1) so I'll be especially careful of that and also ALA, which I've taken for years. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Like all of us, I'm just sick of taking things.

@Mary.....Kefir? You're so good about really sticking to things. Dairy is not and hasn't ever been one of my loves. I do like Greek yogurt with my own berries, though. Sadly, my stomach doesn't.

@Guwop....isn't B-1 supposed to have a calming effect? I'll check that out. Yours, Lenora

 

[Mary]

I gather from your response that I should perhaps try increasing my dair intake and see what happens.@

@Guwop2 - The reason I suggested drinking kefir (or something similar) was in case you had a refeeding syndrome reaction to the B1. If it had caused your phosphorous to tank, then kefir or other dairy might help replenish your phosphorous. This is what happened to me with B1. However, your situation sounds different. For one, the B1 didn't boost your energy and I had a very good boost from it. It's possible that you didn't need the B1. It is puzzling that your fatigue and other symptoms have persisted since October however.

Did you start taking anything else at the same time?

 

[JES]

You can't know for sure unless you do the lab tests and even then we only measure and know 0.1% or something like that about what is going on in the human body.

B vitamins are often taken together as there was some common wisdom apparently that certain B vitamins alone could cause a deficiency in others.

The one B vitamin that is commonly measured and that can contribute to fatigue is B12 when deficient, so try to have that one measured at least.

 

[Guwop2]

@Guwop2 Did you start taking anything else at the same time?

No i didn't. I was trying B1 high dose as part of one of the protocols on here, I cant remember which one - i think i came accrossa thread where someone got better from taking high-dose b1.

 

[linusbert]

when you are on keto you need to have a look at your potassium as it will be used up.
also good sodium shouldnt be missing.
B1 is using up potassium as well, actually you should always take B1 and potassium together, and as marry said, phosphorus is the other thing it depends on.
if the normal B1 doesnt do much for you, try Benfotiamine or Allitiamine. and at much lower doses, like 1/5 of what you take the normal thiamin.

also fat metabolism is very dependent on b2.

why are you on Keto and using fat free products? that doesnt make sense. Keto is meant fat mostly and a bit protein. also proteins can kick you out of ketose. but that depends on the specific proteins and cannot be generalized.
fat free products also lack the fat vitamins A D E K.
and to be frank, if you are not doing strict keto, i wouldnt worry so much about ketose. just saying so you heard about it.

 

[Avena]

why are you on Keto and using fat free products? that doesnt make sense.

Also - does it make any sense to be doing both intermittent fasting and a strict keto diet? Both induce ketosis on their own, don’t they?

Does your doc know about your diet? You might lack several different things on such a strict diet.

 

[Guwop2]

Also - does it make any sense to be doing both intermittent fasting and a strict keto diet? Both induce ketosis on their own, don’t they?

Does your doc know about your diet? You might lack several different things on such a strict diet.

My doctor? Havent seen one of those for years
But i had a bank of bloods done the other week and im apparently at peak health

(all the tests done attached here were all perfect/normal scores)

 

[linusbert]

(all the tests done attached here were all perfect/normal scores)

perfect is relative, my doctor uses the term "perfect" if a exitus isnt immediate the exact now moment and next days...

 

[Artemisia]

Hi, sorry to hear this. What dose of B1 were you taking and what form? Any other supplements?

I did a deep dive into B1 when someone told me taking 2-3 grams of HCl thiamine cured their CFS. I haven't had much luck with it. But I don't think it's likely to hurt thyroid function.

Keto diets, however, can definitely hurt thyroid function. A very low carb diet is what caused the onset of my thyroid problems and ultimately pushed me into ME/CFS.

I know we're all different but I urge extreme caution with any low carb diets. Our cells run on glucose, and if you're not eating glucose, your body has to convert fat and protein to glucose which is inefficient. The last thing we need is more roadblocks in energy production as ME/CFS sufferers.

Anyway people say there are cofactors needed with B1 which are:
B2
magnesium
potassium
sometimes other B supplements

I took those cofactors and still get increased fatigue from high amounts of B1. The B1 people say to "push through" that but I don't like doing things that make me worse just on the off chance I'll eventually get better.